Livsåskådning & ReligionSkepticismVetenskap

Intervju med Baba Brinkman

On May 21st I met up with the evolutionary rapper Baba Brinkman, whom is mostly famous in Sweden for being the man behind the song “Off That (Rationalist Anthem)”, the theme song for the Swedish sceptical podcast, Skeptikerpodden. He’d popped over from England for a few days to perform for the Swedish sceptics in Stockholm at the Big Ben pub just two days before this interview.*

Welcome Baba Brinkman!

Did you know that Skeptikerpodden is at the moment the most popular sceptical podcast in northern Europe, making your song very famous amongst its listeners?

I didn’t know that until you told me but I’m pretty excited to hear it because that was my highest hope when I made that song. When calling something an “anthem” there is a degree of presumptuousness behind that. Because it’s only an anthem if a whole bunch of people get behind it, and it was an attempt to articulate a certain world view and my hope was that sceptics would resonance with this. That’s why I’m loving what’s happening right now.

I’m sure the listeners would like to know more about that song, but before that, could you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Foto: Kalle Bäcklander


I grew up in western Canada, in Vancouver, British Columbia and my family runs a tree planting company. I planted trees though out my late teens and early twenties paying my way through university. I ended up getting two degrees of BA and a Masters and the whole time I was going to school I was nurturing an obsession with poetry that eventually spilled over to an obsession with rap music. I decided that to in order to distinguish myself from mainstream rap artists, to channel my education through my lyrics as much as possible.

Tell us a little bit about your academic education and how you came to combined it with your rap music turning it into the Rap Canterbury Tales.

I first got into the degree and was doing English as my major, then started to fish around for a thesis while these two major interests in my life was competing for my time. I tried to think of a way to bring rap into my studies and I formulated a thesis concept which viewed rap as the latest expression in the history of oral storytelling traditions. […] My argument was that differences between cultures oral traditions are due to having evolved in different places, but really they are part of a universal human instinct of trying to making sense of the world through rhythm, rime and storytelling. The Rap Canterbury Tales was a way to articulate the concept of my thesis creatively by showing people some of the parallels between oral storytelling traditions and hip hop, instead of just trying to explain it as an intellectual concept.

Listen to Baba Brinkman giving a short example of the Rap Canterbury Tales from the interview.

So from Chaucer you made the leap to Darwin, with your Rap Guide to Evolution. How did that album come about?

It was commissioned by a scientist, Dr Mark Pallen. He’d heard of me doing the Rap Canterbury Tales, saw me perform it, and then contacted me and said, “How about making your next project the Origin Of Species?”. This was in 2008 and he was in the process of planning the Darwin Day celebration, for February 12th 2009, which would celebrate Darwin’s 200th birthday. […] I thought that was too cool of a challenge to turn down, so I spent about six months reading my way through a stack of evolutionary biology and popular science books, like Richard Dawkins, just trying to get the breadth of the theory and then try to synthesise the main concepts into rap songs.

This is the first rap album to be peer-reviewed?

Indeed! It was one of Mark Pallen’s conditions because he sort of took a chance on me. He recognised at the same time that there was a liability involved if I didn’t accurately represent the theory. So Mark Pallen said: “you can have the job but you have to send me previews of your lyrics so that I can check them for scientific accuracy and make sure you’re not perpetuating any of the misconceptions around Darwin”. Which I thought was a totally fair condition and nor did I want to sort of misconstrue anything that had to do with evolutionary biology. So when I stepped on stage in front of the scientists for the first time, my job was to make sure it was as entertaining as possible and I didn’t have to feel I had to worry about anything of the things I was saying being challenged as inaccurate or a misrepresentation of Darwin.

(Editor’s note: This project won the prestigious Scotsman Fringe First Award at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival in 2009 for best new theatre writing.)

You took this tour across USA in celebration of Darwin’s 150th Anniversary of the publication of the Origin of Species. How was this received in America?

I was in a bit of a sheltered environment because all of the performances where at biology lecture halls. So this was a collage campus tour and I was booked by the biology department a number of different schools. With the exception of one show actually. Every year in Dover, Pennsylvania, there’s a reunion for “the evolution defenders” from the trial on intelligent design; the school teachers, the lawyers and basically everyone involved who was part of that victory for science in school. And they hired me to perform for them which was a great honour.

When listening to the Rap Guide to Evolution one might assume that you have always been a sceptic. Would you agree with that? 

Foto: Kalle Bäcklander

No, definitely not! I was raised in a rather un-sceptical family actually. Not religious, but I’d say sort of spiritually leaning. My parents were into meditation and yoga, and not all of that falls under the Woo category. There is a nice exercise component to yoga and a there is a nice psychological calming component to meditation. But there were metaphysical beliefs that went along with all that stuff that I wasn’t really sceptical about growing up, at all. My scepticism came from studying evolution and when I got the challenge from Mark Pallen I probably would have described myself as an agnostic at the time: “There might be something out there, I can acknowledge that there is no evidence that there is any supernatural or that there is a God, but are we really going to  say that it’s for sure not the case.” I did sort of buy into that, ‘acknowledgement of the possibility of supernatural equals open-mindedness‘. That argument used to hold more sway for me […] But once you have identified the scientific method as the way we find out the difference between beliefs that are based on reality and believes that are not, which is the only way to separate creationism from evolution, then all kinds of other things just falls by the wayside as well. You can’t reject creationism and keep homoeopathy, it just doesn’t work that way. Because the same criteria is used to reject both of them.

What was the reaction from friends and family of your scepticism?

Uhm, I think there is some resistance to it for sure. I certainly haven’t convinced or converted them all, but I don’t back down from arguments. I think they have the impression that I’ve become more hardened, or something, by scepticism. I used to be in conversations where I’d hear somebody saying something and in the back of my head thinking ‘that’s obviously not true’ but I wouldn’t actually challenge it. Because I’d be like ’what’s the harm’? And I used “harm” as my yard stick for if someone had a totally irrational and clearly deluded belief that wasn’t hurting anybody, let them have it. […] But some of the writers like Ben Goldacre, Simon Singh, Richard Dawkins, Dan Dennet and Sam Harris, just showed that the moderate view of irrationality and pseudo science creates a front by which the more extreme stuff can hide behind and cause its harm, using the more moderate stuff as a shield. As soon as I started to see more and more examples of how that works in the world and how sceptical inquiries, the scientific method and good effective medicine are being hamstrung by people with irrational beliefs that seem to be harmless but promotes the world view of being uncritical which can cause all kinds of harm. As soon as I saw my way through that I thought, ‘Ok, I’m going to take my stand on rationality’ and not let “harm” be such a yard stick any more. Sometimes I don’t challenge people out of politeness, in situations where I’d just ruin the moment if I called ‘bullshit’ on somebody. But in general I tend to say what I think a lot more around people who would disagree.

Listen to Baba Brinkman having dinner debates with his Creationist Cousins.

Is this about the same time you wrote Off That (Rationalist Anthem)?

Absolutely, yeah! I’d just come from TAM London, recently before that […] and got exposed to the whole community and thought these people really have a clear view of the world. Right around the same time Jay-Z put this song out, “Off That”. His version is about fashion and he’s talking about all the styles of hip hop that they don’t associate with any more “oversized clothes and ho’s – we’re off that”. He’s talking about how all those things are sort of played out and you got to move with the times and evolve your style. I thought the sentiment and the tone of the song, the clarity and confidence of it was great, but thought fashion was a pretty frivolous thing to be dismissive about. I see were he was coming from but there are more important things we need to ‘get off’ than played out styles, like played out ideas, and thought I could adapt the whole thing over to the scepticism movement. And yeah, it sort of just fits naturally.

The sequel to Rap Guide to Evolution is the Rap Guide to Human Nature album. Which of these albums have been most controversially received?

I thought that the Rap Guide to Human Nature’s material was much more controversial but I haven’t really had anybody come after me on that one too much. I’ve had more response to the Rap Guide to Evolution, maybe because the Human Nature one is off the creationist’s radar or something like that. Because Human Nature doesn’t set off alarm bells for them the way the word “Evolution” does. When I called it the Rap Guide to Human Nature that was me creating a more accessible title than the one I was thinking of first, which was the ‘Rap Guide to Evolutionary Psychology’, which is really what [the album] is about. Maybe it hasn’t had enough listeners to get me lynched yet, but maybe I’ll hold on for that to happen.

Listen to Baba Brinkman impersonate Richard Dawkins.

Last Thursday you preformed in Stockholm arranged by the Swedish Sceptics, Vetenskap & Folkbildning. You gave a great performance and the sceptics in the audience where ecstatic! You performed some new songs for us that night, including a song based on the book “Dr Tatiana’s Sex Advice to All Creation”. Most of your Swedish fans won’t have heard about it so could you please tell us?

Sure, that book is by Olivia Judson’s and she was recently the science writer for the New York Times magazine. Her book is ‘Dr Tatiana’s Sex Advice to All Creation’ and it is like an advice column for animals with really weird sex behaviour. It is a really hilarious written book […] and it goes through the whole evolution of biology, ‘monogamy vs. promiscuity’, ‘inbreeding vs. outbreeding’ or ‘eating your mate for protein vs. co-parenting for a long time’ and all the different sexual strategies that have evolved by treating them like they are people with funny fetishism. It’s quite an accessible way to get your head around what’s going on in evolutionary biology of sex.

Listen to Baba Brinkman’s new remix of Sexual Selection.

(Editor’s note: The book has been published in Swedish under the name “Dr Tatianas råd om sex och samlevnad för hela skapelsen”.)

Foto: Hannah Wallenskan

Tell us about your current projects!

On Wednesday, the 25th of May, we have a launch event at the Prince Charles Cinema at Leicester Square, London. We’ll be premièring a series of rap music videos based on the Rap Guide to Evolution. […] The charity Wellcome Trust that funded the album in 2009, have a program for disseminating the public understanding of science, so our grant proposal [back in 2009] was to make music videos on the Rap Guide to Evolution in order to make the concepts of the songs sort of more visually intuitive. […] We’re hoping they will become a resource that teachers will use for teaching biology and the event on Wednesday is the world première of these videos.

… And what’s happening in New York?

New York is another incarnation of the show and it’s going to be an off Broadway run at a 200 seat theatre in Manhattan. Starting on the 17th of June I’ll be performing the show eight times a week […] and it’s going to be a full theatrical adaptation of the Rap Guide to Evolution. Part of the reasons for doing this new remix of the album with Dr Tatiana and all the new songs is to have some brand new material to unveil at the same time as the off Broadway show launches.

Today, as we conduct this interview, it is actually the rapture day, May 21st. We can conclude that it, by now, did NOT occur. But just before this interview I learnt about a mother in USA that tried to kill her two daughters to spare them of the rapture by slitting their throats and wrists, before doing the same to herself.  Luckily all three survived, but what do you think, when hearing a story like this?

I think maybe there should be more stringent advertisement guidelines. Putting up billboards that say the world will end on May 21st is a blighted example of false advertising. You can’t put up a billboard that says Coca Cola cures cancer because it’s gonna cause a lot of harm, and it’s a fraud. I think there should be laws against promoting frauds that are based on religious beliefs, just like there are laws against promoting frauds that are based on commercial interests.

How big has the rapture campaign been in Canada?

You know, there were billboards in Vancouver. I probably should have taken the initiative to severely vandalise and deface them, but I didn’t. Maybe I should’ve reported them to the advertise standard commission.

I spoke to a random Swedish person before this interview, about what she’d heard about the rapture day and her thoughts on that. Basically she said that, upon first hearing about it, she just thought it as “silly”, and I think this is the general consensus amongst most Swedes. What was the general take on it in Canada?

I don’t think it was on the radar very much in Canada. I didn’t really hear anybody talking about it except for a couple of posts on Facebook saying ‘Look how stupid these people are’. But I didn’t hear much indignation about it, you know, or interest. It was generally ignored as far as I can tell.

We have received some questions, both from listeners of the Skeptikerpodden and readers of the site.



Foto: Kalle Bäcklander


  • How have your Classical works been received compared to the ones on science and evolution?

I’d say that the science and evolutionary ones have been more popular, but the sceptic in me wonders if that’s because I’m just getting to be more entertaining as a performer or rather the material involved in evolution and scepticism resonates with people more.

  • What rhyme or song are you most proud of?

I don’t know, I just tend to favour new stuff basically. I think the phrase I’m most proud of is the one we’re going to use as the catchphrase in New York “Don’t Sleep with Mean People”. I was trying to find a way to harmonise the cultural and the evolutionary components of the show and that phrase looks at both of them. If everybody sort of controversially agreed on a pact that would be a moratorium on sex with anybody cruel, covetous, uncharitable or sadistic, then that would really change things on two levels immediately;
a. Everybody’s behaviour would improve right away because you wouldn’t get laid unless you where civil.
b. The mean gene would gradually reduce from the gene pool as well.
It’s kind of funny in a goofy catch phrase but if you think it trough, it actually got a wide range of implications.

  • Who would you like to collaborate with and on what?

I would be pretty keen on collaborating with Tim Minchin on a sceptical anthem. He’s definitely a big influence on my style and I think he’s a musical genius, so that would be pretty high on my list. It would be pretty dope to do a song with Jay-Z as well, but you know this is me swinging for the fence.

  • If any, what are the biggest differences between the Canadian sceptic movement and the one in USA?

I really don’t feel qualified to pronounce on that at all. I’ve spent about as much time with the sceptics in Canada as I have with the sceptics in America, which is to say, very little time.

  • What or who has influenced you the most in your music?

I’m going to throw out an unknown name, but there is a rapper called Big Punisher, who died several years ago. But he was the one who first made me start rapping, actually.

  • Your creative writing workshops for rappers – was that a natural step for you to take?

It sort of fell into my lap. I didn’t put myself out there with advertisement, it was teachers coming to my shows and then say ‘I really like what you do. Could you come and speak to the students and give them a workshop?’ It was a really interesting challenge because I was writing rhymes and hadn’t really thought of the structure of hip hop and how the bars fit together and the syncopal patterns and the rhyme patterns. It was a good challenge for me to try and explain this to beginners.

  • Is there a limit to how sciency your lyrics can get?

    Foto: Kalle Bäcklander

I think there is a limit to how accessible something that’s extremely sciency can be. If I was to actually break down the equation by which the Heisenberg theory was proven, in a rap, I think such a thing would be possible. But I have a feeling that it would be less entertaining for people that didn’t know physics than for those who do. […] It would be a bigger and bigger challenge, further I got from the social world.

  • Is Baba your real name or stage name?

It’s a little bit of both. It’s not my real name in far as it’s not the name on my passport, but I was given that [nick] name when I was born and I’ve always been called that. […] My real name is Dirk, after my dad, but I’ve never gone by that because it would have made me ‘junior’. What it comes from is that in India, it’s a designation for a holy man, or guru. My parents where into yoga and meditation and apparently when I was born I had a contemplative expression and my dad took that as empirical evidence that I was reincarnated from a mystic of the past, like a ‘Dalai Lama’-type. Not something I associate with, but the more sceptical I get, the more ironic the name becomes.

Last, is there anything else you would like to tell the listeners and readers?

I’d like to tell them to check out the because that is the next incarnation of the show and the concept and we have great music videos that we’ve been shooting with a production team in the UK and it’s just about to launch in the next couple of days.

Listen to Baba Brinkman’s own rap evolution.

Thank you so much for this interview Baba Brinkman!


*Although the interview was meant for, since I was recording it, I’ve given the finished recording to Skeptikerpodden where you will be able to hear it as of May 31 st. For obvious reasons I have shortened the written interview here, so I do recommend you to have a listen to it as well.

(Tack till Jonas Boström som gav tips som gjorde det möjligt att få upp ljudfilerna till inlägget).
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Är en sjöman, piratimitatör, guide extraordinäre och blivande helikoptertekniker som seglandes tog sig ner till Australien och blev kvar där i två år. Backpackade från ställe till ställe, provade på allt som inte kunde göras i Sverige; delfinmatare, fyrhjulingsguide och fårklippare är några av mina tillkomna kunskaper. Men min största utmaning (och ära) är att få skriva för SkepchickSE.


  1. 26 May, 2011 at 13:47 —

    Skitbra intervju, har bara hört honom i introt till Skeptikerpodden tidigare men jag får nog ta och kolla upp lite fler låtar. Grymt att kunna skryta med “first rap album to be peer-reviewed” också =)

  2. 26 May, 2011 at 14:14 —

    Bra intervju! Jag tror det vore bra med mer skeptiska success-stories, dvs folk som funnit skepticismen.

    Gillar konceptet att sprida skepticism via media, förhoppningsvis kan man sprida en sunt förhållningssätt till verkligheten på ett lättillgängligt sätt för allmänheten.

    Jag misstänker att sådan här typ av rapmusik är mer populär i USA, men där behövs nog också Baba desto mer.

  3. 26 May, 2011 at 16:40 —

    Grym intervju! Jag hoppas att kunna använda hans sida när jag tar emot gymnasieelever på jobbet. Själv tror jag att Baba behövs minst lika mycket i Sverige som i USA. Här hemma är problemet nog framför allt likgiltighet inför evolutionsprocessen och svårighet att förstå hur viktigt, rent existensiellt, som kunskap om evolution kan vara. Dessutom så borde läkarna lära sig lite mer om evolution så att de inte häver ut antibiotika över allt. En ännu större evolutionär antibiotikakänga borde gå till veterinärerna. Se där, Brinkman behöver rocka svedala också!

  4. Daniel
    26 May, 2011 at 20:43 —

    Väl utförd och genomarbetad intervju. Nöje att läsa.

    Kan läsa om premiären i London och kvinnan som ställde till med problem…

  5. 26 May, 2011 at 20:44 —

    Bra intervju. Önskar jag hade kunnat ta mig dit.
    Kul ni fixade kommentarsfunktionen. 😉

  6. 26 May, 2011 at 20:52 —

    Skitbra intervju. Utmärkt att man slipper inloggningen.

  7. Adam
    26 May, 2011 at 21:37 —

    Well played! Mycket bra intervju, gillar att ni inte skalat bort allt för mycket av den!

    Och förstås ett + för att man inte behöver logga in för att kommentera längre 😉

  8. 30 May, 2011 at 18:02 —

    Tack alla för kommentarerna! 😀 Glöm inte att imorgon sänds intervjun i Skeptikerpodden!

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